SuperDuper or CCC with Monterey on M1 iMac

[pine man]

I know that there have been many discussions about the suitability of cloning software programs with Monterey on M1 Macs and, if possible, I would like a bit more basic advice.

I have been using CCC for many years but my understanding of it at the moment is that it cannot effectively make bootable backups with Monterey due to the 'sealed' OS system files and all it does now is backup the Data. In the event of a failure it appears that the os has to be downloaded from Apple and then the Data added from CCC. Out of interest I checked the Startup Disk in Preferences and the CCC Backup is not shown.

I have never tried SuperDuper but notice that Shirt Pocket appear to suggest that the latest version of it will now create a bootable backup with Monterey. I have created a Backup using SuperDuper and it does appear in the Startup Disk in Preferences. I have not yet tried booting from it.

If I understand cloning correctly, with Monterey the system files may well be backed up to an ext DD but whenever that backup is updated only the Data files will actually be updated and not the system files. Have I got that right?

My thoughts are that if I create a new SuperDuper clone each time the os is updated, and keep CCC doing scheduled backups, and I need to restore everything, could I use the SuperDuper backup to restore the System and Data files that were current at the time of the last os update and use CCC to restore the current up to date Data files.

Or have I got the whole thing completely wrong?

 

[Lifeisabeach]

CCC absolutely CAN make bootable backups in Monterey. I've done it myself. There are some other discussions about cloning and debates as to whether or not it's useful going forward. It most certainly has been for me. Here's a blog post by the developer of CCC about the situation.

Beyond Bootable Backups: Adapting recovery strategies for an evolving platform - Bombich Software

bombich.com

 

[Randy B. Singer]

I don't follow why you think that you need both CCC and SD!. You should only need SD!. Dave Nanian, in his usual style, worked meticulously, and directly with Apple, to finally get bootable clones working under Monterey. (You can't boot from an external clone using an M1x-based Mac whose internal SSD is dead, but that's simply a non-negotiable feature of M1x-based Macs. If their internal SSD is dead, the entire Mac is dead for any and all purposes.) You can now use an SD! clone to boot another (good) Mac, or to boot and restore your original Mac once it has been repaired.

SuperDuper 3.5 - TidBITS

SuperDuper 3.2 brings support for macOS 10.14 Mojave, including full disk access and automation prompting. ($27.95 new, free update, 17.1 MB)

tidbits.com

Shirt Pocket Watch - It’s a Trip to the Moon, Not a Marathon

If you have questions about SD!, you can address them to Dave Nanian here:

[email protected]

 

[ferrarr]

In the event of a failure

Software vs hardware. The Apple Silicon makes certain hardware failure significant.

 

[MacInWin]

@pine man , for your M1 system, as has been stated by others, if the internal storage, generally called the "SSD" of the system, fails for hardware, the Mac is dead, for all purposes. Apple refers to it as "fabric," and that is not a bad term. If the "fabric" is torn, the article is ruined. Same for your internal storage. If it is hardware damaged, the machine is ruined.

In the event of a failure it appears that the os has to be downloaded from Apple and then the Data added from CCC

No, it does not need to be downloaded. If the problem is corruption in the software, the entire system can be restored from the secure enclave that Apple has created in the system. There is a section of the storage fabric in which the entire system files, as updated by Apple, are stored. On a reinstallation of the system, those files are copied from that secure enclave to create a snapshot of a bootable system. The system does checksum type error checking and then compares the checksums against what Apple thinks they should be, and if all is good, the system is booted from the snapshot. (That's a simple version, what happens is actually pretty complex. If you want to know more, start here: Booting an M1 Mac from hardware to kexts: 1 Hardware and read all three parts of the boot sequence.

Once booted, the restoration from TM or migration from a cloned backup puts your stuff back where you want it. Depending on which is the source, you may have other things to do to clean up the installation.

But there is no longer any need to download the source, it is there in the fabric.

On clones and their value, Randy said it best:

You can't boot from an external clone using an M1x-based Mac whose internal SSD is dead, but that's simply a non-negotiable feature of M1x-based Macs. If their internal SSD is dead, the entire Mac is dead for any and all purposes.

So, clones are, in my mind, not as useful, or critical, as they were for Intel machines with separate drives. They are still useful, but not in the same way. Before, if the internal drive, replaceable or not, failed, you could boot from the clone and be back in operation in minutes. But with the M1 systems, if the hardware fails for the storage, the entire "fabric" is dead. Now that might change, if Apple does anything to separate the storage from the CPU of the fabric, but there doesn't seem to be any movement in that direction. In fact, for performance purposes they may even go in the opposite direction and integrate the fabric even closer.

 

[pine man]

Thanks for the replies.

CCC absolutely CAN make bootable backups in Monterey. I've done it myself.

Thanks for that link.
CCC seems to explain how you can make a bootable backup from Monterey but go on to put forward a strong argument for NOT actually doing it!

You should only need SD!

I couldn't agree more.
My proposal was based on my paid ownership of CCC and using the free version of SD!
If I can be satisfied that SD will make an effective bootable backup and scheduled updates to it will not only update the Data but also the os, when necessary I'll bin CCC and buy SD. The interface appears a lot more user friendly than CCC.

 

[pine man]

Thanks everybody.

I've had some advice from Shirt Pocket now and taking it, and what you all have said, into account it appears that CCC can be made bootable but has to be manipulated to do so with some risk. SD can be set to be bootable and as long as you don't try to keep the operating system up to date within the backup then it appears to be safe.

I also recognise that it probably is no longer so important to have bootable backups.

If I have summarised the issue incorrectly I'm sure someone will let me know!

What to do?

I'm tempted to give SD a try and see how get on. In fact I'll probably run them side by side for a while and do a bit of testing.

Thanks again,

 

[Lifeisabeach]

Thanks for the replies.


Thanks for that link.
CCC seems to explain how you can make a bootable backup from Monterey but go on to put forward a strong argument for NOT actually doing it!

They aren't arguing to NOT do it, but to temper one's expectations as to the utility of doing so as a consequence not only of how macOS is evolving, but also with regards to the future of Mac hardware on Apple Silicon. As pointed out earlier, with Apple Silicon, if the internal SSD fails, it's game over. The system isn't bootable even off of an external drive. But otherwise, you can boot off an external drive. The system portion may not be a traditional clone and not updatable itself via the cloning tool, but it is bootable nonetheless. You just have to decide whether or not you have, or one day MAY have a need to have a bootable copy. Me? I did have just such a need. I don't care to rehash it all, but the greater point is that it's better to have and not need than to not have and one day need. There's no good reason to NOT have one on hand.

 

[pine man]

They aren't arguing to NOT do it, but to temper one's expectations

I think my issue was, that having read the CCC advice, which is a cautious approach and then the SD advice, which is a more positive approach, coupled with the fact that CCC by default doesn't create bootable backups wheras SD does, gave me the impression that SD was a better bet. Hence my comments about CCC, which were probably somewhat disingenuous.

Certainly I am in full agreement that it is better to have the bootable facility, if possible, than not and I will try both products and see what results.

Thanks again.

 

[pine man]

Following some research and testing I have come to the following conclusions.

• Both CCC and SD backups can be made bootable and do actually boot.
• Both CCC and SD can then update the Data on a regular basis but neither program will update the operating system contained within that backup.
• To update the operating system with both programs the backup disk is erased before the update takes place, so all previously backed up Data is lost.
• The only difference that I can find between the two programs is that CCC does not recommend bootable backups whereas SD appears to encourage it by its marketing.
• Both programs appear to suggest that is not necessary to actually create bootable backups as their use is limited.
• I am running a paid for version of CCC and, at the moment, a free version of SD and cannot see any benefit in buying a copy of SD, which effectively does the same.
• The only decision left is whether or not to make CCC create bootable backups and lose all historic data when I update the operating system in them!!

 

[MacInWin]

I have both. Bombich has basically thrown in the towel on bootable backups. And that's ok, given that the new Apple Silicon makes booting from an external drive a lot harder and if the internal storage has failed, impossible. But CCC still clones your data and the things you control, so it is still useful.

SD! does make bootable backups, but I keep running into a quirk. Basically, it does the backup then fails at the end with an error message that it could not run "bless" to make the drive bootable. Don't worry about what "bless" does, just accept that it's a utility to mark a drive as bootable. Anyway, I opened a ticket with Shirt Pocket and got into a mail dialog with Dave Nanian, the developer. He suggested I try booting from it anyway. And it worked! So, even with the "error" message, it does make bootable externals.

However, there are two other quirks about it. First, when it finished and I looked at the destination drive with Finder, nothing of mine was there. The system was there, but /Users was empty. Dave said that the Data Volume wasn't mounted, so I opened Disk Utility and sure enough, Data was NOT mounted. I mounted it and all of my stuff appeared. So that's the first quirk, you may need to mount the Data Volume manually. Later on, after a couple of reboots, both Volumes mounted normally. Strange behavior.

The second quirk is that the way M1/Monterey works is that only ONE drive can be approved as the "boot" drive. So, in booting from the external drive, the system shifted the boot drive to that drive. The complication is that by doing so, all my information in Wallet was deleted as part of the security. Wallet only allows one disk to have the data on it! Also, to get the machine to properly boot from the internal again, one has to go into System Preferences while booted from the External, and use "Startup Disk" to make the internal storage the boot system again. If you don't do that, it won't boot from the internal. If the external isn't attached and you have not set the internal as boot, it should go into Recovery, where you have to use System Preferences to make the internal the boot system. Unlike in the "good ol' days," security has been significantly strengthened to prevent unauthorized access to your data.

It still remains that although it is possible to make a bootable clone, the actual value of one, in an Apple Silicon environment, is pretty low for the average user.

 

[pine man]

Nothing appears to be straightforward anymore with M1/Monterey!

Given that I have CCC working as a Data backup and that is supported by TM, I'm inclined to leave things as they are for the time being and see what develops.

 

[chscag]

Given that I have CCC working as a Data backup and that is supported by TM, I'm inclined to leave things as they are for the time being and see what develops.

That's exactly what I also am doing. Monterey 12.1 has changed my backup strategy. Although both CCC and SD! will render the clone bootable (bless) both cause a kernel panic for the very reason that Jake mentioned above (volume not mounted).

I've come to the conclusion that a bootable clone of Monterey can no longer be depended on in the event that the system crashes for some reason.

 

[MacInWin]

Nothing appears to be straightforward anymore with M1/Monterey!

Given that I have CCC working as a Data backup and that is supported by TM, I'm inclined to leave things as they are for the time being and see what develops.

I can't get TM to make a backup any longer. Last backup was Dec 15, since then it runs, but makes no backup. Takes up space on the destination drive, no files. First Aid does not fix it, the files are not hidden. And when I tried to get TM to make a NEW backup on a NEW drive, it consistently reports that it has never made a successful backup. Apple is aware and supposedly working on it. Bottom line, right now just about all backups are broken in some way.

 

[chscag]

Apple is going to have to address this and do it quickly. As far as I'm aware, Monterey 12.2 Beta does not get into the TM or other backup problems. Of course that could be changed in a future Beta of 12.2. I'm sure Apple is aware of the urgency of getting this fixed.

 

[MacInWin]

"Asr," which I have read is the "backup" process in place ever since Apple created APFS, is broken. CCC and SD! both depend on it, as does TM. In the increase in security (secure, encrypted enclaves, etc.) Apple broke the process by which files of the system could be copied. The "asr" process was supposed to have the authority to reach into the secure encryption and make the backups as needed. CCC started reporting problems with asr early on, right after APFS appeared. Dave Nanian, of SD!, also has reported issues with it that he managed to work around, sort of.

Originally, I thought that maybe Apple was saying, "We will provide backup, you don't need any third party," but now I think it is not a plan, it's just broken. And I agree, they need to fix it before there is a greater outcry. A class-action lawsuit from a group of businesses that depend on Apple hardware for business operations and who stand to lose the most if backups don't work might be an incentive to Apple to do something. Clearly the end user is crying in the dark and not being heard on this.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

I can't get TM to make a backup any longer. Last backup was Dec 15, since then it runs, but makes no backup. Takes up space on the destination drive, no files. First Aid does not fix it, the files are not hidden. And when I tried to get TM to make a NEW backup on a NEW drive, it consistently reports that it has never made a successful backup. Apple is aware and supposedly working on it. Bottom line, right now just about all backups are broken in some way.

Huh, It sounds like you are now having the same problem I had up until 12.1 fixed it. I'm assuming you are on 12.1 because that was released the day before your last successful backup. That's.... odd.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

So I've been a bit confused as to comments about Bombich giving up on bootable backups and whatnot, when I knew full well it had been working with Monterey for me. No kernel panics. I fired it up a short while ago and updated my existing clone, no problem. I then tried to boot off of it and.... no dice? It used to be bootable, but now not recognized as a bootable volume. So I decided to start from scratch with CCC rather than simply updating the clone and... none of the options exist anymore about making it bootable? So then I tried wiping the drive completely for laughs using Disk Utility. Somehow I wound up with a second volume and I can't delete it to re-partition back to one. The process fails, and I have no idea why. Worse? I somehow now have 3 APFS volumes and again, no idea why. And I can't fix it. Wowza. (EDIT: simply rebooting cured it... weird)

EDIT again: I found the Legacy bootable backup option... a bit tricky to find, but it's there. Starting anew...

 

[chscag]

The process fails, and I have no idea why.

Welcome to the club. Like I explained above, CCC and SD! will actually "Bless" the clone (after erasing the volume) and render it bootable. However, it crashes halfway thru the boot process with a kernel panic. I believe it's because it's not mounting the "Data" volume during the process. And, I have no idea how to make it mount as before.

Note... that this started with Monterey 12.1. No problem before that. Also note.. the same exact thing happens with both CCC and SD! I blame this one on Apple.

 

[MacInWin]

Huh, It sounds like you are now having the same problem I had up until 12.1 fixed it. I'm assuming you are on 12.1 because that was released the day before your last successful backup. That's.... odd.

I am on 12.1. I have disconnected the drive from my system because TM was starting to "prune" the backups I have and I didn't want to lose what is there. I've been trying to get TM to complete a backup, even gave it a new SSD and a new RDHD to use, and it just can't finish a backup. Apple support said that the engineers are "working on it" and that a new release may have a solution. I'm not optimistic, frankly.