Time Machine running out of space

[JML_UK]

Hi, I hope this is the right forum, but I've got two MacBooks, one a 16" pro and one a 13" Air, both 2020 vintage, both intel based, both running Monterey 12.3.1

And both are reporting that they can no longer complete time machine backups because of lack of space. The MacBook Pro has a 1Tb hard disk backing up to a 2tb external ssd and the Air 500gb SSD backing up to a 1TB ssd. Plenty of room on both I thought - and I thought that Time Machine was supposed to automatically delete the older files when it ran out of space? I keep the external drives in place except when travelling (which is almost never for the Pro) so I guess there are backups going back a couple of years, but even so...

Grateful for any thoughts on what I should do (apart from use CCC... which I do anyway on the Pro for belt and braces!)

John

 

[MacInWin]

Monterey has had issues deleting old TM backups. You are not the only one to see it. About the only thing that folks are doing are to 1) start over by formatting the backup drive and making a new backup or 2) get a new drive to make a new backup, keeping the old until it's pretty obvious that you don't need anything from the history. Sadly, I don't know of any "fix" for the dilemma.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

And both are reporting that they can no longer complete time machine backups because of lack of space. The MacBook Pro has a 1Tb hard disk backing up to a 2tb external ssd and the Air 500gb SSD backing up to a 1TB ssd. Plenty of room on both I thought - and I thought that Time Machine was supposed to automatically delete the older files when it ran out of space?

We've had a long discussion about this here on this forum, where I explained that using an SSD as your media for a Time Machine backup is simply not tenable. Read through the discussion here:

Time Machine + External SSD May Be Very Bad

Getting an external SSD to use for a versioned backup (e.g. Time Machine) can end up being A HORRIBLE IDEA! I'm already hearing from folks who have told me that their TM SSD fills up, and then stops backing up. While using an SSD for a clone backup (e.g. Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper!) is a...

www.mac-forums.com

In fact, we've had this discussion on several Macintosh discussion lists. Folks just don't want to believe it, but it's true. SSD's, especially external SSD's with no over-provisioning like Samsung's SSD's, are more or less designed so that it's time to replace them when they get to about 70% full. If you fill them up, as happens with Time Machine, they tend to simply drop dead.

Even worse, other than using the command line, there are no tools for the Macintosh to erase and restore your SSD that has become full. However, you can stave off this problem by enabling TRIM (preferably early in its life) for your external hard drive. Monterey is the first version of the Mac OS that will allow you to enable TRIM on an external (versus an internal) SSD:

macOS Monterey supporte enfin le TRIM en USB | Le journal du lapin

translate.yandex.com

(Ironically, while Time Machine does a versioned backup, if you do a clone backup, using an SSD isn't just a good idea, it's more or less a necessity, for performance reasons when booting from an external hard drive. Users find this particularly confusing.)

 

[JML_UK]

Oh, wow, naively I had no idea of any of this - I thought I was doing the .”right thing”. Thanks Randy and MacinWin - it’s back to the drawing boards for my backups then

thanks for your help guys, much appreciated

john

 

[JML_UK]

Should it work ok if I use a conventional external HDD?

 

[MacInWin]

Should it work ok if I use a conventional external HDD?

I have seen reports that the problem is not restricted to SSDs, but Randy may have other, better, sources. I'm using a rotating drive for my TM backups at this time. My clone process is to an SSD, although it's not a bootable clone. Mx systems are, at present, not friendly to external boot drives. It can be done, but it's a struggle and if the reason to do so is a failure of the internal storage, it won't work anyway. So all I'm cloning is the Data drive.

 

[JML_UK]

Thanks Jake - that was the next question that occurred to me… is there any point in using CCC now that it can’t (as I understand it) be used as an external boot drive? Maybe just stick with Time Machine that (again as I understand it) can still provide a full restore?

 

[MacInWin]

I think there is a use case for CCC. As I said, I have it cloning my Data drive and in that process keeping the history (I think it's still called Safety Net). I'm doing that because I'm not currently trusting Time Machine as much as I have in the past for that history. The inability to delete older backups to make space is very worrying to me. Given how CCC works, I think it has a better chance at handling the lack of space. I haven't reached that point, yet.

EDIT: As for "full restore," as long as the internal storage is functional and the reason for the restoration is only software or configuration related, the process for Mx systems is to boot to Recovery and reinstall the OS. What happens then, for Monterey at least, is that the Secure System Volume is checked for integrity--basically it phones home to Apple to see if the master hash still matches Apples golden hash for the system. If it is good, then it recreates a bootable snapshot of that SSV and boots from there. Once booted, you can restore from the backup to this new system. If the master hash doesn't match, then the system will download the installer files and recreate a verified SSV, bootable snapshot and boot from that. I know that the migration process can restore from TM and I read that CCC can clone the Data drive back from the clone, so how that restore is done will depend on your backup strategy.

 

[IWT]

@MacInWin

Hi Jake,

I share your concern re Time Machine backups with macOS 12 - Monterey.

My approach, which I acknowledge is much easier for those with desktop iMacs, is to have 2 TM backups to spinning EHDs and controlled by TimeMachineEditor.

I have no need for such BUs longer than, say, 3 months. So every 3 months or so, I completely erase one of the TM EHDs and start afresh. Then the same with the other.

I never let a TM backup get anywhere near the capacity of the EHD. (which is 1.5 - 2 times the storage capacity of my iMac).

You know all this, but it might help others who fret about capacity issues with their TM backups.

As regards Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC), I use the legacy approach every time there is an update (or upgrade obviously) and that goes to a Samsung T7 SSD.

Ian

 

[JML_UK]

Many thanks Jake, that's very clear and very helpful. I think I'll plug in a decent size conventional external HD for time machine, permanently connected, and use the ssd for a weekly, or so, CCC backup. Most of my data files are also saved to DropBox, so I think that's probably enough belt and braces

Thanks for your help

 

[Randy B. Singer]

...CCC backup. ...

Though Bombich claims that all of CCC's problems with Monterey have been resolved, I'm still hearing from folks who can't successfully make a bootable backup with CCC. On the other hand, SuperDuper! seems to be doing fine. So I would recommend that for doing a clone backup instead:

SuperDuper!

 

[MacInWin]

Though Bombich claims that all of CCC's problems with Monterey have been resolved, I'm still hearing from folks who can't successfully make a bootable backup with CCC. On the other hand, SuperDuper! seems to be doing fine. So I would recommend that for doing a clone backup instead:

SuperDuper!

As long as it's not an Mx system. Bootable clones for Mx systems aren't very useful. In this case the OP has Intel systems, so it's a good suggestion, Randy, but I just wanted to be clear about the situation for owners of Mx systems who may read this thread.

 

[Rod]

I think I'll plug in a decent size conventional external HD for time machine, permanently connected, and use the ssd for a weekly, or so, CCC backup

This is exactly what I do and I think the perfect combination.
Personally I only keep each backup from one major macOS upgrade to the next, in other words, one year. However I allow the clone to hang around a bit longer just in case I need to restore or replace anything.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

...Bootable clones for Mx systems aren't very useful. ... I just wanted to be clear about the situation for owners of Mx systems

Then I'll just have to keep an answer on hand in my database to cut and paste to post each time you say this (as you have already a bunch of times). Because I still think that a clone of one's Apple Silicon-based Mac is EXTREMELY useful.

You can't use an external clone to boot an Apple Silicon-based Mac whose internal SSD is dead, because an Apple Silicon-based Mac with a dead internal SSD is simply a dead Mac for all purposes.

But when your Apple Silicon-based Mac's internal SSD dies, you can still use your external clone to:

1. Attach to another Macintosh that supports APFS. In which case you have access to all of your data while your main Macintosh is being repaired (or replaced) and you can use all of the applications that are supported by the OS on the Mac you attach to

2. Boot another Apple Silicon-based Mac, requiring only that you enter the administrator password

3. Recreate your deceased internal SSD exactly as it was onto a healthy empty internal SSD in another Apple Silicon-based Mac

4. Restore all of your data to your Mac once it has been repaired.

To reiterate, if your internal SSD fails in your Apple Silicon-based Mac, you can no longer boot that Mac from a clone backup and keep on working on the same Mac. (Actually, if your internal SSD fails in your Apple Silicon-based Mac, your Mac is completely dead for any and all purposes.) However, a clone allows your data to remain saved and unharmed, useable while your Mac is being repaired, and used to restore your data in your original or another Mac.

In addition, it's a waste of time to disparage clones as a backup technique just because you can't boot from an Apple Silicon-based Mac with a dead internal SSD, as your other choice, a versioned backup, doesn't give you this capability either. And history has shown that maintaining a backup (of some sort) of your data is crucial.

It's up to the listmoms to decide if we have to have this digression EVERY SINGLE TIME that the topic of clone backups is mentioned on this forum. If necessary, we can put a pin on this discussion and refer users to it instead of harping on it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

[rbpeirce]

Monterey has had issues deleting old TM backups. You are not the only one to see it. About the only thing that folks are doing are to 1) start over by formatting the backup drive and making a new backup or 2) get a new drive to make a new backup, keeping the old until it's pretty obvious that you don't need anything from the history. Sadly, I don't know of any "fix" for the dilemma.

At first I thought this was the thread I started. This is the first time I've seen somebody actually say there is a problem with Monterey. I feel a lot better that it may eventually get fixed.

My latest solution is to remove my old backup from the list and to add another. Once I have about three months of backups on it I'll reformat the old one and start to use it. That way I won't have to worry whether Time Machine will free up space or not.

Although redundant, I also make a SuperDuper! backup of my Macintosh HD each day on another HD and once a week I copy the latest to a RAID array.

I'll probably never need any of this but it is cheap insurance. I also have a 2012 MBP and I've never had to restore anything, lucky I guess.

 

[MacInWin]

Then I'll just have to keep an answer on hand in my database to cut and paste to post each time you say this (as you have already a bunch of times). Because I still think that a clone of one's Apple Silicon-based Mac is EXTREMELY useful.

You can't use an external clone to boot an Apple Silicon-based Mac whose internal SSD is dead, because an Apple Silicon-based Mac with a dead internal SSD is simply a dead Mac for all purposes.

But when your Apple Silicon-based Mac's internal SSD dies, you can still use your external clone to:

1. Attach to another Macintosh that supports APFS. In which case you have access to all of your data while your main Macintosh is being repaired (or replaced) and you can use all of the applications that are supported by the OS on the Mac you attach to

2. Boot another Apple Silicon-based Mac, requiring only that you enter the administrator password

3. Recreate your deceased internal SSD exactly as it was onto a healthy empty internal SSD in another Apple Silicon-based Mac

4. Restore all of your data to your Mac once it has been repaired.

To reiterate, if your internal SSD fails in your Apple Silicon-based Mac, you can no longer boot that Mac from a clone backup and keep on working on the same Mac. (Actually, if your internal SSD fails in your Apple Silicon-based Mac, your Mac is completely dead for any and all purposes.) However, a clone allows your data to remain saved and unharmed, useable while your Mac is being repaired, and used to restore your data in your original or another Mac.

In addition, it's a waste of time to disparage clones as a backup technique just because you can't boot from an Apple Silicon-based Mac with a dead internal SSD, as your other choice, a versioned backup, doesn't give you this capability either. And history has shown that maintaining a backup (of some sort) of your data is crucial.

It's up to the listmoms to decide if we have to have this digression EVERY SINGLE TIME that the topic of clone backups is mentioned on this forum. If necessary, we can put a pin on this discussion and refer users to it instead of harping on it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Truce, Randy. We don't need to discuss this every time. But do have a read here: Which SSDs can you boot your M1 Mac from? Do hard disks work too?

Howard, in that article, says this:

Before going any further, allow me to reiterate: unless you’ve got a compelling reason, only ever boot your M1 Mac from its internal SSD. That’s how it’s designed to work, and that’s how it works best, even when it’s not working properly.

But I do want to call a truce. You stop saying it is useful and I'll stop saying it isn't. How's that? We'll leave the subject alone.

 

[Howard Brazee]

I have a bootable external SSD drive for emergencies, but it is slow, slow, slow. I got it when a MacOS upgrade broke a program I absolutely needed. But I also have a disk-based Time Machine. I don't need speed with Time Machine, but I do need the ability to restore old files which aren't on clones.

I'm curious though. If your Time Machine drive fills up, do people clone it to bigger drives in order to keep the history on the old Time Machine backup?

 

[Randy B. Singer]

Truce, Randy. We don't need to discuss this every time.

Correct.

But do have a read here: Which SSDs can you boot your M1 Mac from? Do hard disks work too?

Howard, in that article, says this:

I agree with Mr. Oakley that there is little reason to boot from a Clone unless one has a compelling reason. Actually, that's always been the case. Clone backups have always been highly valuable, even if you never booted from yours.

Where I disagree with Mr. Oakley is that he doesn't think that cloning software works reliably. That's in direct opposition to what David Nanian at ShirtPocket Software thinks. While I really respect Mr. Oakley, in my mind there is no one anywhere who knows more about cloning software than Mr. Nanian. Mr. Nanian is almost a zealot when it comes to creating good software, and his record over many years is impeccable. (I should note that I never seem to hear Mr. Oakley talk about SuperDuper! specifically in his writing, and I wonder if he has some sort of bias against it, or against Mr. Nanian.)

David spent a lot of time making SuperDuper! work well under Monterey and with Apple Silicon-based Macs. The feedback that I've been hearing from users is that he has succeeded. When I start hearing from users that SuperDuper! has become ineffective at creating bootable clones, I'll stop recommending that folks use it; or at least I will tell them not to expect to be able to use their clones for booting.

But I do want to call a truce. You stop saying it is useful and I'll stop saying it isn't. How's that?

Except that I DO think that having a clone backup is highly useful, and even if one never intends to boot from one's clone, I still think that having a clone backup is practically a necessity. Hard drives (even SSD's) often fail. If not sooner, then later. Users need to have some sort of backup. They can rely on a versioned backup instead, but I hear more stories about Time Machine backups failing, BY FAR, than clone backups failing. (There is a thread about it going on RIGHT NOW in this forum.) So I'm not going to stop saying that clone backups are useful, I'm going to continue to highly recommend them.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

I'm curious though. If your Time Machine drive fills up, do people clone it to bigger drives in order to keep the history on the old Time Machine backup?

Here is an article with a number of suggestions on what to do:

Apple Time Machine Not Working Mac Monterey

Time Machine not responding on Mac, MacBook after update? Or restore from Time Machine Not Working on Mac, MacBook. Here are few fixes you can try.

seektogeek.com

Also see:

Monterey Time Machine not working - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

 

[IWT]

I'm curious though. If your Time Machine drive fills up, do people clone it to bigger drives in order to keep the history on the old Time Machine backup?

Hi Howard; interesting questions.

I've never come across anyone cloning a nearly-full Time Machine External Hard Drive (EHD) to another EHD. Owing to the complexity of TM and the way it depends on links, I suspect it might not work. If someone has attempted this, I guess they'll chime in.

From your post, I get the impression that you see TM backups as a form of long-term storage. I may be quite mistaken; but you talked of keeping the history on an old TM backup.

Apple, and needless to say, ourselves in these forums, have stressed that TM backups should NOT be seen or used as long-term storage facilities.

Historically, TM was principally used for recovering data that had accidentally been deleted; or seeking a previous version of a document. And, of course, it backs up everything except the OS. So, it's ideal for when you get a new Mac. You transfer all data, settings, passwords, photos - the lot - to your new machine.

But for longer term storage, you need a dedicated EHD or drives; you can back up to iCloud or use iCloud Drive or one of the non-Apple options such as One Drive, Dropbox etc. And then there's cloned BU options as well.

Interesting discussion.

Ian