Mail "Quit Unexpectedly"

[rethel]

My wife's Mac Mail flashes and disappears with "Quit Unexpectedly".

She can look at any and all Flagged emails without problems. She can look at any emails before 2 weeks ago without a problem, but as soon as she scrolls down past April 8 Mail disappears and gives the error. At first I focused on trying to figure out which one but never could nail a specific email.

One suggestion was to delete the cache so I followed the directions to ~/Library/Mail/ and moved both Vx that were there to trash. Opening Mail caused a long delay while everything at her email account loaded up to the Mac. It did not help, as soon as she scrolled through April, Mail flashed to Unexpectedly.

There are all kinds of theories that some email has a 'bad' attachment, or there is a corrupted email. I cranked up an ancient Mac which was last used years ago and had her email account in it. It took a long time to load the thousands of emails since it was last booted. After that, No problems, Mail performed as normal, nothing Unexpected.

That means to me that the mails are not the cause, so I directed my attention to a failure in Mail itself, and how to recover from it.

Google has been helpful in finding all kinds of suggestions, but none of them even come close to a solution e.g.

- Remove email account and Add back.
The Delete action is gray
- Rebuild email account
The Rebuild action is gray
- Rename the account
The Rename action is gray

She is feeling isolated even though she can still browse and use the browser to reply to emails at her account, but the spam is rife unlike being purged by Mail before she sees it, and it is clumsy to work with.

Any ideas on how to ungray the Mail actions would be of interest.

I am open to suggestions of any and every approach to clean up Mail's problem.


Thanks

 

[IWT]

I'm assuming that before you started the complicated sequence you described, that you Quit the Mail app and rebooted the computer? This frequently works.

Also, has your good lady made sure that she has set up to view ALL previous emails because it's possible to limit how many previous emails show up?

Further, within the Mail app, how many email sources does she have eg iCloud, Gmail, others? And is it just ONE email source that fails, or all of them?

Sorry for the questions but we need a bit more detail.

Ian

 

[rethel]

Thank you Ian,

Don't be sorry, much appreciate the assistance and happy to provide more detail.

She has restarted and cold booted several times with:
- Mail closed with the red dot
- Mail Quit from the Menu
- Mail open

One account only, gmail.

> Also, has your good lady made sure that she has set up to view ALL previous emails because it's possible to limit how many previous emails show up?

It is? She does not know how to do that.

Inbox has >38,000 messages, 74 unread. After I deleted the cache, all previous emails were downloaded.

When she opens Mail it is at the oldest email, not the latest and has to scroll down to get the latest. This was not true previously, it always opened at the latest email if she did not have one open.

Mail quits unexpectedly when scrolling down, nowhere near the latest emails, still in the 201x emails.

Shift Mail opening makes no difference to behavior, as soon as she opens Inbox and scrolls to latest emails it goes Unexpected.

If she chooses the Reopen alternative, Mail re-opens and immediately goes Unexpected.

If she chooses Report there is a lot of data but can see no way to save it or email anyone else but Send to Apple.

On the premise that there were too many emails, she started deleting the oldest, or archiving them. After doing a few hundred with it making no difference to the behavior she stopped.

If she stays in a colored flag box, no issues, only happens on Inbox.

AFAIK, she only does Mail, Safari and Zoom so very unlikely there is any kind of interaction happening.

Hope this helps.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

...as soon as she scrolled through April, Mail flashed to Unexpectedly.

That sort of behavior points to one of two types of problem. First would be a memory-related problem. At some point too much is fed into RAM, and poof, your program quits. It's either an overflow, or more likely a bad register in one of your RAM modules. The second possibility would be that something is loading in that is toxic, and causing a very hard crash. Possibly corrupted software.

Things to try:

Try uninstalling any third party anti-virus software that you have installed. (This will likely require the developer's uninstaller program to uninstall it completely. Get it from the developer's Web site.) Reboot and see if the problem is gone. (Some modern third party anti-virus programs interact directly with Mail (to catch viral e-mail), and negative interactions between the AV software and Mail have been known to happen.)

If that doesn't help, I would suspect that you might have problems with your Mac's physical RAM. It doesn't do the most thorough test, but since it's free try:

Apple Diagnostics
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202731

Unfortunately, with the demise of Rember for recent Macs, I don't have a good recommendation for a modern, thorough, RAM tester.

If that doesn't help, a common Mail problem is receiving a corrupted/malicious e-mail that causes Mail to choke. Actually, it may not have ever made it to your Mac. It may be that it's on your mail provider's server and trying to read it causes your Mail program to crash. The way to deal with this is to log into your mail provider's mail server using the Web-based interface most ISP's provide and to delete the problematic e-mail manually. The problematic one is usually easy to spot. It's usually either very spammy or unreadable. If your ISP doesn't offer a Web interface, you can use:

MyPOPBarrier (free):

Softwares / Logiciels Toroco

softwares.toroco.fr

If none of the above work, my recommendation is to do a complete reinstallation (in place; none of your data will be harmed, but you should do a full backup first just in case) of the Mac OS (which will also install a fresh copy of Mail). I know that this sounds extreme, but it is really quite easy. The thing is, you could chase after any number of solutions to your problem, taking hours and hours, and still not find the solution. A fresh copy of the OS, and of Mail, often fixes vexing problems with Mail and it's fairly quick and easy to do.

Reinstall macOS
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/reinstall-macos-mchlp1599/mac

 

[rethel]

Hi Ian,

> Try uninstalling any third party anti-virus software that you have installed.

Okay

> you might have problems with your Mac's physical RAM.

It never occurred to me it could be a hardware problem.

> If that doesn't help, a common Mail problem...

I thought I had eliminated that possibility by resurrecting the old Mac. It has all her gmail downloaded and Mail is happy looking at everything.

> If none of the above work, my recommendation is to do a complete reinstallation....

That will be a new experience for both of us.


Thank you, I am so busy with work it will take awhile before I get through the above for her. Will be back to advise the results.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

Hi Ian,

I'm not Ian, I'm Randy.

I thought I had eliminated that possibility by resurrecting the old Mac. It has all her gmail downloaded and Mail is happy looking at everything.

For whatever reason, what happens on another machine (especially one running a different version of Mail and the Mac OS) isn't always diagnostic of what is happening on YOUR machine. Since checking your Mail server for toxic messages is an easy thing to try, it's worth a shot. I only suggested it because it's been a common cause of Mail crashes on other Macs.

It never occurred to me it could be a hardware problem.

Crashes due to bad RAM were common for Macs up until a few years ago. It stopped when Apple started to solder-in RAM and make it non-user-upgradeable), as the cause was third party RAM that was installed without proper grounding technique. (Which is why Apple started soldering-in the RAM. Those failures made Macs look unreliable, even though Apple had nothing to do with them.) If your Mac has third-party RAM in it that you installed yourself, then that RAM becomes a major suspect in causing your problem.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

0

 

[rethel]

Whoops, my apologies Randy.

> Since checking your Mail server for toxic messages is an easy thing to try, it's worth a shot.

I used Safari to log into Gmail. No unusual emails.

> Crashes due to bad RAM were common for Macs up until a few years ago...

I am trying to check RAM but none of the passwords I enter for Diagnostics work. There are only three which she calls:
- OS install
- Mac install
- Mac personal

All three failed. The hint of @pple does not help.

To check whether there was any mistake I checked Passwords because to see a password you have to enter the Mac's password to see it. Her Mac install password worked, and it is also the same password for localhost BUT it is not accepted by Diagnostics.

I am at a loss, and have had a horrible thought. If the Diagnostics password is the same as that of the original OS installed at purchase then we will never be able to run Diagnostics, each OS upgrade was given a new password.

Is there any way to find out what password Diagnostics thinks is correct?

 

[ferrarr]

Maybe, in order to run Apple Diagnostics, the password needed is the password for the Apple/iCloud account?

 

[rethel]

My wife does not have an iCloud account. She does not have an Apple ID either, the times she tried would get a big black message that creating one could not be completed at this time.

Command-R requires password - Apple Community says the password is for firmware, and to go to the Apple store. Another suggestion is to reset the SMC, and go to the Apple store. Given the long waits for the Genius bar, resetting the SMC would certainly be faster but can find no hint on what to do after it is reset.

I am uncomfortable not knowing the firmware password but if it is not needed for the re-install that's what comes next.

 

[MacInWin]

It is almost impossible to run a Mac without an AppleID associated with it. We are not talking iCloud, but AppleID. Those are two different things. Either she has an AppleID, or you do, to allow the Mac to communicate with Apple for just about everything that you do with a Mac. That includes reinstalling the OS on the Mac. SO, you can't reinstall unless you or she (or both) have an AppleID.

As for firmware, unless YOU set a firmware password, there is none on the system. And if you have forgotten any firmware password you may have set, there is very little that can be done to recover it except by Apple technicians, and if they do that, everything on the Mac will be obliterated. And if the firmware has a password, she would have to enter it on every cold boot.

One thing to try to sort out Mail is to reverse the order of the messages to be from oldest first, to newest first. That would be done through the Mail Preferences or Settings, depending on what version of macOS and what Mac you are asking about. I don't think you've told us that information. That would help. On my Mail (Sonoma 14.4.1), Settigns>Viewing is where you can select "Show most recent pessage at the top." I think you can also change the sort order by clicking on the caret beside "Date Received" in the column for that information in Mail and it will reverse the order. For recent-first, the caret should point down.

 

[IWT]

It is almost impossible to run a Mac without an AppleID associated with it.

Either she has an AppleID, or you do, to allow the Mac to communicate with Apple for just about everything that you do with a Mac.

That's absolutely correct. @rethel - can you say for certain that your wife has no Apple ID and if so; is she using your Apple ID? She must have some communication with Apple??

Yes, she can use a MacBook Pro without an Apple ID. She will not be able to purchase, install, or update apps from the App store, and she will not have the benefit of iCloud backups.

Might be worth a moment to read this?:

Create an Apple ID on Mac

On your Mac, create an Apple ID that securely identifies you when you use the App Store, iCloud and other Apple services.

support.apple.com

Our purpose here is to assist, so please post back.

Ian

 

[rethel]

> It is almost impossible to run a Mac without an AppleID associated with it.

> can you say for certain that your wife has no Apple ID and if so; is she using your Apple ID?

I have no Apple ID

You guys are convincing, so I took a punt and used her email address to sign into Apple ID and much to my surprise it was accepted. Had to use 'Forgot' to set a new password and log in. It did not help, my wife has achieved the 'almost impossible', there is nothing under Device information.

> you can't reinstall unless you or she (or both) have an AppleID.

I will have to absorb that news and consider her options. My first reaction is either reset to Factory settings and start from scratch or talk her into a different email app.

> As for firmware, unless YOU set a firmware password, there is none on the system.

Everything that was done on her Mac was by a Genius at the Apple store. Diagnostics is sure there is a password.

> ..if you have forgotten any firmware password you may have set, there is very little that can be done to recover it except by Apple technicians, and if they do that, everything on the Mac will be obliterated. And if the firmware has a password, she would have to enter it on every cold boot.

That seems unreasonable. Why bother going to the store when you can reset to factory settings at home?

> Our purpose here is to assist, so please post back.

Your assistance is very much appreciated but am having to squeeze this into my schedule, so cannot always get back to you immediately.

Some on google say resetting NVRAM/PRAM resets the firmware password. I will not be able to try that until tonight, but it seems unlikely. A password is there to protect and if pressing some keys at boot time can clear it then that is hardly protection. I expect the firmware password will be required to perform the reset.


Thanks

 

[MacInWin]

I have no Apple ID

Wrong. And you proved it here:

You guys are convincing, so I took a punt and used her email address to sign into Apple ID and much to my surprise it was accepted. Had to use 'Forgot' to set a new password and log in.

Her email was her login account. Apple used to do that regularly. Newer accounts tend to be in the Apple email domain, but they did, and maybe still do, allow users to create an AppleID using whatever email they wanted to use.

I will have to absorb that news and consider her options. My first reaction is either reset to Factory settings and start from scratch or talk her into a different email app.

Now that you know her AppleID is valid with the new password you assigned to it, no need to do that.

Everything that was done on her Mac was by a Genius at the Apple store. Diagnostics is sure there is a password.

Two different things. Firmware passwords are required at every cold boot. The default from Apple is to not have a firmware password, and the Genius would not have set one unless you asked for it. I suspect the password that Diagnostics wants is her AppleID password, the one you just reset.

That seems unreasonable. Why bother going to the store when you can reset to factory settings at home?

To reduce the value of the machine to thieves. If you have super-critical data on the machine, you can protect it with the firmware password. If it then is stolen, or "found" and not returned, the machine is a brick without the password. And when you take it to an Apple store to have it recovered, you have to prove you own it. So, that's not an unreasonable position at all, it actually makes good sense.

Some on google say resetting NVRAM/PRAM resets the firmware password.

That is wrong.

I expect the firmware password will be required to perform the reset.

But you don't need a reset. You found the AppleID account information, so you can reset if you want, but I don't really think it will help, or is worth it, to fix the Mail issue.

 

[Rod]

each OS upgrade was given a new password.

I am totally confused by this statement. There is no system requirement for a new password at either Upgrade or Update of the macOS and I have to assume you are referring to the Administrator password for the device as opposed to an Apple ID (email address) and Apple ID password. That user name and password remains the same forever.

I get the feeling that this is all a little more complex than we may be able to solve sight unseen. For example, how many users are there on the device? Have a look in Apple Settings (preferences) > users and Groups. Is it possible that you have set a new user at each macOS upgrade?

 

[Rod]

It would also be helpful to know what Mac model you re referring to and the operating system the Mac in question is running because settings vary.

 

[rethel]

> I suspect the password that Diagnostics wants is her AppleID password,

Unfortunately not. Test did not accept it.

> what Mac model you're referring to and the operating system

Sorry Rod, you asked for it earlier.

Mac book with El Capitan and Apple says unable to upgrade further

The help from all of you has taught me a huge amount about her Mac.

I cannot run Diagnostics to test the memory, so it seems like the only alternative is to reinstall the OS.

Since restoring the OS does no harm, the only downside is the time it takes.

If it does not solve the Mail Unexpected error then it is time to pull memory. It has 4MB, so suspect there are two sticks. If it is not one, then it must be the other.

 

[MacInWin]

Please click on the Apple icon in the upper left corner and then "About this Mac" and tell us what Macbook or MacbookPro or MacbookAir we are talking about.

I can almost guarantee that the Mail issue is NOT memory. I also suspect reinstalling the OS won't solve the problem with Mail. Depending on the model, the memory may not be on "sticks" as you think, and you may not be able to "pull" them (or it).

But we're working in the dark until we know what machine and exact version of El Cap is in question.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

> Diagnostics is sure there is a password.

You haven't told us what year, and exact model, of Macintosh you have.

So I don't know if this is relevant, but I should point ouf that Apple Diagnostics only runs on Macs made from June 2013 and later. If you have an older Mac, you instead need to run Hardware Test.

Apple Diagnostics

Use Apple Diagnostics to test your Mac - Apple Support

Apple Diagnostics, formerly known as Apple Hardware Test, can check your Mac for hardware issues.

support.apple.com

Hardware Test

How to use Apple Hardware Test on your Mac - Apple Support

Apple Hardware Test (AHT) contains a suite of diagnostics that test the hardware of your Mac.

support.apple.com

I'm concerned that this might be an issue because you said:

> Mac book with El Capitan and Apple says unable to upgrade further

That would indicate that you have a very old Macintosh. El Capitan is macOS 10.11, released in 2015. It may be that your Mac is older than the 11 year cutoff for Apple Diagnostics.

 

[rethel]

> we're working in the dark until we know what machine and exact version of El Cap is in question.

> You haven't told us what year, and exact model, of Macintosh you have.

The Apple ID Device content was empty after I changed the password, and it had been populated when I checked again. It said MacBook, no machine ID, no year, no model, just MacBook.

System Preferences/System Report says Model 5,1 w/no year mentioned. El Capitan 10.11.6

> the memory may not be on "sticks"

I opened up the machine and tested the memory because I realized it was pretty silly to spend hours on a restore and then discover it was hardware. Like you said, not the problem.

> If you have an older Mac, you instead need to run Hardware Test.

It is called Test on her machine, and since the firmware password is unknown have yet to find out what it can do.